[zeromq-dev] Porting libzmq to C++11
BJovke .
bjovan at gmail.com
Fri May 19 15:54:43 CEST 2017
And, by the way, I see that Martin Sustrik had his last commits on nanomsg
in 2014, before he started working in Google in beginning of 2015.
This is also one of the issues with open-source projects, a danger that it
can become a dead project.
2017-05-19 15:50 GMT+02:00 BJovke . <bjovan at gmail.com>:
> Actually I've read the whole blog post together with the comments.
>
> I have to say that author had many wrong points:
>
> - Speaking of C++ as a bad language doesn't make any sense to me.
> Especially when it seems that he did not read the story behind many of the
> principles and why are they introduced in C++.
> - Everyone's free will is to choose the language in which to develop
> it's own code. Hence if author didn't feel comfortable with C++ he should
> have used C only.
> - It seems that the author's knowledge about C++ comes down to one of
> the earliest C++ versions called "C with classes". The code fits perfectly
> into that language.
> - In nanomsg (you have a typo, it's not nanonmsg), the author simply
> discarded all of the C++ constructs, which was really easy to do since the
> libzmq code is almost pure C.
> - The blog post is old, possibly from time when C++11 has just
> appeared.
> - I'm not convinced with any of the points he stated against C++.
> - I have a feeling that history is repeating itself: "why would you
> use magnetic tapes when punch cards are the best way to input program into
> computer?".
>
> I'm not sure this is the place to discuss in details all of the claims
> from the post, but I'm not against it.
> Discussion about that can give us clearer picture about libzmq, C and
> C++(11).
>
> Greetings.
>
>
> 2017-05-19 15:29 GMT+02:00 <lists at chuckremes.com>:
>
>> Looks like no one has read the blog posts I sent earlier in this thread.
>> The original author of libzmq explains his rationale for avoiding C++ very
>> well in these two posts. Please read them.
>>
>>
>> http://250bpm.com/blog:4
>>
>> http://250bpm.com/blog:8
>>
>>
>> Additionally, if you want to consider how to REWRITE libzmq, then look at
>> how the original author of libzmq approached it.
>>
>> http://nanonmsg.org
>>
>> He rewrote it in C and named it something else. It isn’t compatible with
>> libzmq’s wire protocol but it should give some ideas on how to adjust the
>> architecture. Look at the code for it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 19, 2017, at 8:21 AM, BJovke . <bjovan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have a feeling that C++14 and C++17 are just improvements of C++11.
>> C++11 is the game changer, 14 and 17 don't bring ground breaking stuff.
>>
>> I would be also happy to contribute to C++11 libzmq but I'm not sure how
>> much stuff I can do.
>> I'm currently not familiar with inner workings of libzmq enough detailed
>> to be confident to rewrite it, although I'm reading the docs and code day
>> by day.
>> My time to spend is questionable, sometimes I have a lot of time and
>> sometimes I cannot contribute for days or even weeks.
>>
>> There are also many aspects of libzmq which make it hard to adopt the
>> code, instead requiring complete rewrite:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2017-05-18 20:29 GMT+02:00 Jens Auer <jens.auer at betaversion.net>:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I would be happy to contribute to such a project, even if many users
>>> will stay with the "old" code. For me, it is a great way to learn
>>> something. I would also be happy to aim for C++14 or even C++17 once it is
>>> officially released. I think structured bindings and the new if (init;
>>> condition) will be very helpful. C++17 also has std::optional.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Jens
>>>
>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: zeromq-dev [mailto:zeromq-dev-bounces at lists.zeromq.org] Im Auftrag
>>> von Aram Santogidis
>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2017 10:57
>>> An: ZeroMQ development list
>>> Betreff: Re: [zeromq-dev] Porting libzmq to C++11
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> a good reason to modernize the codebase, or even better to create a new
>>> project ala libzmq11, is to help its evolution with new networking
>>> technologies and software engineering practices.
>>>
>>> As an example, consider the difficulties many faced (including myself)
>>> in extending ZeroMQ to support RDMA-based networking interfaces. The
>>> current design and implementation is hostile to such extensions.
>>> Honestly, C++98 or not, I think it still can be done but with major cost
>>> in development effort and additional complexity to an already complex
>>> codebase.
>>>
>>> Moving to C++11 and beyond is not merely an argument of fashion, as some
>>> of you implied, but it is vital for its future.
>>> C++ and related technologies evolve and libzmq stays behind. New
>>> developers are reluctant to contribute once they have a look at the
>>> current design and implementation (old school C++ roughly speaking).
>>>
>>> Think for example when networking will be included in the standard, how
>>> much ugly code that juggles platform differences could be eliminated from
>>> the current implementation. Same applies for threading, which is in the
>>> standard since C++11.
>>>
>>> I don't underestimate the importance (and the size?) of the current
>>> userbase. I'm aware from first-hand experience about some fairly critical
>>> software that relies on libzmq.
>>>
>>> I guess the idea is to create i) a new project in the ZeroMQ
>>> organization that ii) implements ZMTP and iii) the non-depricated ZMQ
>>> socket types. The public API of libzmq should be a subset of the
>>> libzmq11 so that will facilitate the transition of users, in the long
>>> term, that do not run on legacy systems.
>>>
>>> I will happily contribute to such an effort provided that there will be
>>> at least one or two experienced members from the community that will join
>>> this effort.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Aram
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 17.05.2017 16:54, BJovke . wrote:
>>> > Well, you're right. There must be a good reason for such an
>>> undertaking.
>>> > I too feel that C++11 itself is not good enough reason.
>>> > Anyway there has to be enough people willing to contribute to it.
>>> >
>>> > I was just saying this because no idea should be discarded right away,
>>> > but for sure there needs to be a valid need and reason for it.
>>> >
>>> > Greetings.
>>> >
>>> > 2017-05-17 16:15 GMT+02:00 Doron Somech <somdoron at gmail.com
>>> > <mailto:somdoron at gmail.com>>:
>>> >
>>> > What will be the benefit from moving to C++11? And more important
>>> > what is the benefit from having two projects? one supporting C++11
>>> > and one not?
>>> >
>>> > I think that maintaining two repositories is hard and not sure for
>>> > what cause?
>>> >
>>> > Anyway, if some one want to do it, in the zeromq philosophy, please
>>> > fork and add the project to the zeromq organization.
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 4:29 PM, <lists at chuckremes.com
>>> > <mailto:lists at chuckremes.com>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > On May 17, 2017, at 7:56 AM, BJovke . <bjovan at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:bjovan at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > Hello.
>>> > >
>>> > > Libzmq is not even fully C++ compliant:
>>> > > - There's no exception handling.
>>> > > - There are no RAII principles implemented.
>>> > > - Parent/child object hierarchy is loose or not
>>> implemented, all of the burden of proper order of calls is on programmer.
>>> > >
>>> > > And so on...
>>> > >
>>> > > C++11 is really a remarkable feat of engineering and me
>>> personally like to see fully C++11 implemented software.
>>> > > Unfortunately, for libzmq this would require substantial
>>> rewrite of the library.
>>> > >
>>> > > Maybe there's an option to create another parallel branch to
>>> existing libzmq or even create another product, for example "libzmq11"?
>>> > > On the wire this could be 100% compatible with non-C++11
>>> libzmq but there would be 0% chance to compile older projects with it.
>>> >
>>> > This is a good time to bring out some old blog posts. Martin
>>> > Sustrik was the original developer of libzmq. He had some
>>> > thoughts on why he should have written the library in C instead
>>> > of C++. Here you go:
>>> >
>>> > http://250bpm.com/blog:4
>>> >
>>> > http://250bpm.com/blog:8
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > zeromq-dev mailing list
>>> > zeromq-dev at lists.zeromq.org <mailto:zeromq-dev at lists.zerom
>>> q.org>
>>> > https://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
>>> > <https://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> > zeromq-dev at lists.zeromq.org <mailto:zeromq-dev at lists.zeromq.org>
>>> > https://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
>>> > <https://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> >
>>> > Jovan Bunjevački.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> > https://lists.zeromq.org/mailman/listinfo/zeromq-dev
>>> >
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jovan Bunjevački.
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jovan Bunjevački.
>
--
Jovan Bunjevački.
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