[zeromq-dev] An interesting use-case for EdgeNet : Asynchronous IRC?

Wed Jan 8 01:59:52 CET 2014

Ah wow that's exactly what this needed. I'll try to spend some time
this weekend porting it and moving things over to the edgenet org.

On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 2:45 AM, Pieter Hintjens <ph at imatix.com> wrote:
> Sorry, forgot to provide the link to Jyre, it's here:
> https://github.com/zeromq/jyre
>
> Written by the one and only miniway.
>
> On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Pieter Hintjens <ph at imatix.com> wrote:
>> Wow, awesome!!
>>
>> There is Jyre, a Java implementation of Zyre 1.0 (since then, I
>> removed FileMQ from Zyre and simplified the API).
>>
>> If you use Jyre (and perhaps update it), it'll interoperate with Zyre
>> and we can then look at making protocols that interoperate. I'd been
>> aiming to make the core stack in C, but you're already so far along in
>> Java...
>>
>> I've added you to the admin team for the github/edgenet organization;
>> if you want you can move (rename) vector to that organization.
>>
>> At this stage, I think if we can get proofs of concept working we're
>> doing really well.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Sean Robertson <sprobertson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Here's my current attempt at an edgenet messaging app -
>>> https://github.com/spro/Vector
>>>
>>> All that works right now is shouting into a shared room, but it's
>>> using the edgenet design of UDP presence beacons & individual dealer
>>> -> router connections to achieve that. I wasn't sure how to go about
>>> compiling zyre into the project but it attempts to use the proper ZRE
>>> beacon format. (The messaging protocol doesn't comply at all (yet))
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Pieter Hintjens <ph at imatix.com> wrote:
>>>> Interesting. There are so many avenues for fun stuff. Right now the
>>>> challenge is just to get the basic libzmq+czmq+zyre+drops stack
>>>> building on Android.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 10:12 PM, Lindley French <lindleyf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Now that I've read Chapter 8 completely, I'm quite certain I could help get
>>>>> zyre working on Android once I get hold of a phone. For one thing, I've
>>>>> already created a very similar system for Android, so many of the same
>>>>> lessons should apply. It was a bit bizarre how similar my solution to peer
>>>>> messaging was to Zyre, actually----I found myself nodding many times
>>>>> throughout that chapter. UDP beacons for discovery, pooled TCP connections
>>>>> for peer messaging, the need for a HELLO message of sorts (although in my
>>>>> case, it went out with every new TCP connection, so port reuse wasn't an
>>>>> issue). I also sympathize entirely with the problems of setting up 30-phone
>>>>> simulations, at least until our python codebase matured to automate the
>>>>> process and we created a tool to issue ADB commands to all the phones in
>>>>> parallel.
>>>>>
>>>>> This tells me that we're both probably on the right track.
>>>>>
>>>>> The main differences were:
>>>>> 1) Mine was written in almost pure Java (one or two Android-specific things
>>>>> made it in).
>>>>> 2) I had to manage the TCP connections myself since I didn't use 0MQ. Also,
>>>>> messages flowed both ways across a single connection between peers rather
>>>>> than using multiple connections as in the Harmony pattern.
>>>>> 3) I put a lot of effort into giving senders a confirmation that their
>>>>> message had made it, or letting them know I wasn't able to confirm it, using
>>>>> a java Future and messaging ACKs.
>>>>> 4) I had a capability to supplement the beacon broadcasts with additional
>>>>> beacon unicasts to specified addresses. This turned out to be all that was
>>>>> necessary to create geographically distant "peers" under controlled
>>>>> circumstances. (I didn't address discovery of what addresses to unicast to.)
>>>>> 5) The system was created from the start to be edge-oriented rather than
>>>>> node-oriented. That is, a peer was defined both by the destination and the
>>>>> interface used to reach it.
>>>>> 6) I never attempted group messaging, although I was aware it was a
>>>>> desirable goal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Pieter Hintjens <ph at imatix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lindley, would you be able to help get Zyre et all working on Android?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 8:44 PM, Lindley French <lindleyf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> > Oh---and some network functionality shuts down on Android when the
>>>>>> > device is
>>>>>> > inactive if you don't take the appropriate lock. This is a critical
>>>>>> > consideration when designing edge networking services.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Jan 1, 2014, at 1:17 PM, Lindley French <lindleyf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Android at least, if you have any trouble with UDP broadcast or
>>>>>> > multicast, you should trying using the IPv6 all-hosts address. Android's
>>>>>> > built-in filtering doesn't seem to affect IPv6 the same way as IPv4.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 12:10 AM, Sean Robertson <sprobertson at gmail.com>
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I have something like this in the works, in the form of an iOS
>>>>>> >> application
>>>>>> >> that I hope to soon port to Android. It doesn't properly use Zyre but
>>>>>> >> rather
>>>>>> >> my own haphazard  reimplementation, due to some silliness with Apple's
>>>>>> >> UDP
>>>>>> >> broadcast (https://github.com/zeromq/czmq/issues/297). The UI works
>>>>>> >> decently
>>>>>> >> though. I'll send the code to this list later this week.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Dec 31, 2013 6:38 PM, "Lindley French" <lindleyf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Asych twitter is a good idea and will work well. I've seen it done.
>>>>>> >>> Another fun application is async push to talk.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On Dec 31, 2013, at 9:32 PM, crocket <crockabiscuit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> May asynchronous twitter be more appropriate for my idea?
>>>>>> >>> Asynchronous twitter, asynchronous IRC, whatever.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 11:19 AM, crocket <crockabiscuit at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> With asynchronous IRC software, you can choose your nickname and a
>>>>>> >>>> topic.
>>>>>> >>>> You send messages that belong to a topic.
>>>>>> >>>> People who subscribed to that topic receive your message.
>>>>>> >>>> Or they might choose to receive messages from every topic.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> This becomes very interesting when population density goes up very
>>>>>> >>>> high
>>>>>> >>>> in a small area.
>>>>>> >>>> Imagine that you went to comiket. Wikipedia says "Comiket (コミケット
>>>>>> >>>> Komiketto?), otherwise known as the Comic Market (コミックマーケット Komikku
>>>>>> >>>> Māketto?), is the world's largest dōjinshi fair, held twice a year in
>>>>>> >>>> Tokyo,
>>>>>> >>>> Japan."
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> ~590,000 people attended comiket last summer. It basically looks like
>>>>>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Comiket77.jpg
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> With hundreds of thousands of people in a small area, asynchronous
>>>>>> >>>> IRC
>>>>>> >>>> becomes fun.
>>>>>> >>>> Not as fun as the near-synchronous one we have now, but still.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> I think asynchronous IRC may entice people to adopt EdgeNet starting
>>>>>> >>>> from big meetups.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
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